Socialism in a nutshell.
Whether that is Marxism proper or the state-powered crony-crapitalism that we have in most of the West, where the State "redistribute" billions to people like Musk.

@niclas I don't think redistributing wealth to billionaires is socialism

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@Hyolobrika Did I hurt your feelings? I agree that I am stretching the definition, just a little.

Just like many people say that we have Capitalism in the West (we don't), it is likewise easy to claim that "Welfare" is a sure-tell-sign of socialism, and "Welfare to Corporations" is more prevalent than one can imagine...

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@niclas
i think @Hyolobrika meant that our systems can't call themselves "socialist" precisely because of the fact they redistribute wealth to the obscenely rich.

at least how i read it ;)

@bonifartius

And by the same token, you can't call our existing systems Capitalism, since we have no free markets.

@Hyolobrika

@niclas won't argue that point. we have totally fucked up systems here. my favorite are the ~250 different public health insurances in germany, which by law all have to pay the same things. one public insurance would be enough, imagine the savings. health care would be nearly free.
@Hyolobrika

@niclas This is basically the one-drop rule applied to political ideologies. "To be capitalism one must have an absolutely free market but to be socialism it is sufficient to have a little bit of wealth redistribution".
"Free market" and "forced wealth redistribution" aren't the only definitions of "capitalism" and "socialism" though btw. Some people think socialism is compatible with a free market (and historically, they seem to be right): minorcompositions.info/wp-cont
You didn't hurt my feelings btw.

@Hyolobrika Thanks for the link to that book. Reading the introduction and browsing the table of contents, it seems to align pretty much with my own stance, not at all contradicts it.

End of the day, I think the main issue (as often is) was what the words actually means.
Example; For me Free Market with only Voluntary Transactions is Capitalism. You and many others (incl this book), includes state-privileged capitalists, state-enforced corporations, and other state interference

@bonifartius

@niclas @bonifartius Yeah. Apparently some of the original socialists (i.e. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who corresponded with Marx) were pro-free-market.
According to the second essay in the book, Marx wasn't the only one to think up the idea. Proudhon and Josiah Warren got there first.

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